Viewing the Trump/Biden debate
Jun. 27th, 2024 11:23 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
aadlerI don’t generally watch political stuff on television, I’m more inclined to check the reports of the speeches/
As is the tradition, strong drink will fortify me for the ordeal. Last time (Obama/Romney) it was Bloody Marys; tonight, vodka and Coke.
First off: I don’t for a moment trust the ‘moderators’ — open, virulent, dedicated anti-Trumpers, both of them — but the debate rules as laid down actually seem (mostly) like a good idea, IF they are followed fairly. Which I do not anticipate.
I won’t claim to be fully objective. I’ll try not to be deliberately untruthful. Nothing is direct quotes (some may come close), but will mainly be the message I get from what the candidates say.
First drink, and we’re off.
First question. (Don’t remember what it was, forgot to write it down at that moment.)
[Looked it up the day after, internet said “The first question of the night focused on rising prices.”]
Biden is faintly slurring, and opens with lies in the first minute.
Oh, yeah, sure his family sat around the kitchen table working their bills. There was no political dynasty there at all.
Now Trump’s rebuttal to Biden’s response to the first question. I’m on his side, but I’m not seeing a lot of substance there. He’s telling the truth, in my opinion, but I’d love to see some factual data. Which, in fairness, was headed off by the rule that prohibited any outside materials.
Now Biden’s response to Trump’s response. Right, he ‘fixed’ the problem of people dying in Afghanistan. By abandoning our allies in Afghanistan, and doing it in a way that guaranteed chaos and left billions of dollars’ worth of weapons to the Taliban (plus costing additional American lives in the botched withdrawal).
Trump’s response to Biden’s response. Factual, no big punches.
Trump, why do you think tax cuts are a good idea?
Trump: Because it bolsters the economy. Which is what it did, and it would have been impossible to ignore if Covid hadn’t derailed everything.
I personally feel that Trump’s Covid response was the weakest part of his presidency. Primarily because he put too much trust in ‘experts’ who were not-so-hidden authoritarians, and who were openly or covertly doing everything they could to undercut him.
Also, Trump put in a dig at Biden over his disastrous immigration policies (i.e., open the border to everybody who wants to come on in).
Biden’s response shows him starting to falter, and he closed with some mumbling line about ‘beating Medicare’. What the hell is that supposed to mean?
Trump jumps on that, lots of accusations.
Following repeal of Roe v. Wade, most abortions are now done by the ‘abortion pill’. Trump, would you make that illegal?
Trump says he has no intention of making the abortion pill illegal. I myself believe abortion is an obscenity for any reason other than saving the life of the mother (which is in line with practically every major religion till the late 20th century); however, I’m wary of a president trying to make law. Then Trump follows by saying he supports the exceptions for rape and incest, which I don’t.
Biden thinks any limits on abortion are tyrannical. Because he’s a devout Catholic, of course. Then he kind of loses his place trying to connect that to Trump’s criticism of his immigration policies.
Trump goes after that immigration thing. Again, I agree with him, but I’m hearing a lot of generalities. Then back to abortion, but not exactly addressing it directly, more saying he put it back to the people — the states — making the decision.
Back to Biden, and he absolutely comes out in support of the original Roe v. Wade. Of course, Roe was immediately expanded to eventually allow abortion on demand till after birth (unwanted babies dying unattended in cold rooms).
Trump criticizes that. Biden calls him a liar, then lies (twice).
Trump comes back, saying Biden is supporting essentially unlimited abortion. Biden accuses him of unjustly canceling a fifty-year law. Oops, the Supreme Court did that.
Next question, immigration/border security.
Biden talks about a bipartisan agreement that secures the border (never mind what we actually see happening). And, oh yeah, Trump was putting babies in cages. And now the border is better than when Trump left office (again, never mind what we can actually see).
Trump: Yeah, that’s not true. Border secure? you flung it wide open, and now we’ve got people coming from all over the world. (On the Border Patrol: “They endorsed me for president. I won’t say that, but they endorsed me for president.” He won’t say it, but he said it twice.)
Biden gives some weird, rambling answer about al Qaeda coming in and killing people. Is he saying that happened under Trump? I couldn’t follow it.
Will Trump expel all illegals?
Trump slaps back against the Biden accusation, and then goes on at length about the crime problem with illegal aliens. A real issue, but not actually answering the question.
Biden: Everything he said is a lie! Veterans are better off under me! (Never mind them being turned out of facilities to make room for illegals. And Beau Biden in Iraq. And D-Day, and then the lie about Trump calling veterans suckers and losers.)
Trump: That’s a made-up quote, and I had any number of people attesting that I never said that. Would I say something like that in front of generals? It’s all made-up, like the Russia Russia Russia, and the Russian disinformation accusation regarding the Hunter laptop.
Biden: A general said you said it! And how dare you say I should apologize for anything! And I’m doing more for veterans than any administration in history!
Putin just listed his terms for ending the Ukraine war. Would you find those terms acceptable?
Trump: Veterans can’t stand Biden, and they like me. As for Ukraine, Putin went in there because Biden screwed up. Which wasn’t helped by how badly Biden messed up the Afghanistan withdrawal, which showed Putin that he was dealing with a weakling. (Then something I couldn’t quite follow about Hamas and Afghanistan, with Iran in there somewhere. Think he might have lost the thread trying to get in a lot of stuff toward the end of his two minutes.)
Biden: I’ve never heard so much malarkey in my life. (Then accusations about Trump dealing badly with Iran, and claiming that Putin went into Ukraine because Trump said he could do whatever he wants.)
Moderators bring back the original question. Trump points out that Zelensky gets billions of dollars every time he comes to America, and that’s money wasted, and he (Trump) will settle the Russia/
Biden: Putin’s a war criminal. Blah, blah, blah, bad, bad, bad. And we’re giving Ukraine weapons, not money.
October 7, and American hostages, Israel killing thousands of Palestinian civilians, Hamas keeping hostages, what will Biden do to address this?
Biden: Everybody on Earth supports the plan I’ve put forward! Hamas wants war, I’ve only denied 2,000-lb bombs to Israel, not other weapons! We saved Israel, we’re the biggest supporters of Israel in the world. (He really needs to let Netanyahu know that, because Bibi seems to be getting an entirely different message.)
Trump: Back to Ukraine for a moment. Why won’t Biden talk to European allies and demand that they pay their share for Ukraine defense, instead of making America foot the entire bill? As far as Hamas, Israel wants to keep the war going, and we should let them do that because they need to finish the job.
Biden: he wants to take us out of NATO! That’s nuts! I’ve got multinational support for defending Ukraine.
(Follow-up to Trump: will you support a Palestinian state to bring peace to the Middle East?) Trump’s answer starts with arguing against Biden’s NATO accusation. Maybe making a needed point, but not answering the actual question.
January 6th — Trump, what do you say to people who believe you caused that mess, and are worried you’ll do it again?
Trump: On January 6, we had a good border, energy independence, low taxes, low regulations. That’s what we had, and now we don’t.
(Moderator: back to the question: What do you say to people who think you violated your oath to defend the Constitution?)
Trump: I didn’t. I said ‘peacefully and patriotically’. (Then stuff about Nancy Pelosi shutting down suggested preparations for dealing with all the people showing up.)
Biden: I watched people begging him for three hours to stop what was happening at the Capitol. The people in jail should be in jail, and he wants to let them out?
Trump: You should be ashamed of what’s been done to people. (Only, he talks about Portland and other places; if he means jailing the January 6 protestors, he’s not making that point yet. Claims ‘they’ destroyed information that would show the truth of January 6.)
Biden: He’s a convicted felon! And he didn’t do anything to stop the January 6 insurrection! Calling those people patriots, come on! And I wanted him to denounce the Proud Boys.
Trump, about your conviction, and what you said about going after your opponents?
Trump: I said my retribution is going to be success. And isn’t Hunter a convicted felon, too? Except they let the statute of limitations expire on a lot of the important stuff. And didn’t Biden do plenty of things that would be prosecuted if anybody else had done them? I did nothing wrong, the whole process was disgusting.
Biden: The whole idea that I did anything wrong is outrageous. (Then he starts a litany of all the things Trump has been accused of, and says Trump has the morals of an alley-cat.)
Trump: I didn’t do those things. (Then a list of all the actions that were taken to set up a prosecution of him for political gain, only his poll numbers went up with every accusation, because people could see it’s a political witch-hunt.)
Trump and MAGA Republicans, will they vote against democracy?
Biden: The more they know. (What does that mean?) And he said he’d seek retribution! And I got involved because of my son and Iraq, and what I saw in Charlottesville, and (something about Germany. Then a repetition of the MANY TIMES DEBUNKED FVCKING LIE about Trump calling Nazis fine people.)
Trump: Look at what I actually said originally, that disproves everything he just said. He’s done the worst presidency in the history of this country. (Then many repetitions of the fact that the ‘saying Nazis were fine people’ accusation was repeatedly disproven by the transcripts of his actual speech.)
Biden: No! I ran because of what he did! He supported Nazis! I couldn’t let someone like that be president!
– First commercial break. Second drink. I need it. –
Streaming problems. Are we going to be able to keep up with this?
It’s back.
Black people are still worse-off than white people. Biden, what do you say to black voters?
Biden: No, black people are doing great under me! (Unemployment, housing, fighting corporate segregation. Starting to stumble a bit.) Black child care, I cut those costs in half. I’m doing great, and I’ll keep doing great. (Moderator: You still have 49 seconds. Anything else?) I’m doing great, and I’ll keep doing great. And student loan forgiveness.
Trump: He’s blaming inflation, but he caused it. And it’s killing more than just black families, it’s hitting all kinds of families, and he didn’t have that problem when he started, he threw it in motion with the Green New Scam, plus black job loss because of illegal immigration.
Biden: No, there was no inflation when I came in because the economy was dead! Fifty percent unemployment! He wants to get rid of the ACA! We put more police on the street, he wants to cut the cops! Inflation, he caused that by his malfeasance in the pandemic.
Climate crisis! Hottest year on record! Trump, will you take any action to slow the climate crisis?
Trump: First, he said something about police supporting him. They support me. Also, he talked about ‘super-predators’ in the Nineties, and black people aren’t going to forget that. (More stuff about economic programs that are working well for black people. Not answering the question. And more problems with immigration.)
(Moderator: Thirty seconds left. Will you slow the climate crisis?) Trump: I support clean water and clean air, and I was doing fine during my first four years.
Biden: I don’t know what he’s talking about. I passed the most extensive climate change whatever in history. And I gave a bunch of money to black colleges. What’s this about cleanest water? He pulled out of the Paris Peace Accords. (Did he actually say Climate Accords? I really thought I heard Peace Accords.)
Trump: The Paris Accords would have been a disaster, and damn right I got us out of it. As far as what he said about reducing the price of insulin, I did that. And the flood of illegals is going to overwhelm our hospitals, and overload Medicare and Medicaid.
Biden: We’re one of the largest polluters in the world. The Paris Accords would have been good. And I made sure every company controlled drug prices!
Social Security: Biden, seniors will start seeing their benefits cut unless something is done. Will you do something?
Biden: Make the very wealthy pay their fair share. Anybody earning over $175,000 should automatically pay 6% (what, for Social Security? not clear). But first we have to defeat Trump, because he wants to cut Social Security and Medicare!
Trump: I’ve been dealing with politicians for years. I’ve never seen anybody lie like this guy. Everything he said is a lie. As for Social Security, millions of illegals a year are the biggest threat to Social Security.
Biden: Trump fired that general that supported the ‘suckers and losers’ story. As for illegals, we’re on top of that. And 159 scholars say he’s the worst president in American history.
Child care costs. Trump, what would you do to address this?
Trump: First, that general was fired because he was no good, and I had 19 generals who contradicted his story. I’ve fired several people; did Biden fire anybody over the Afghanistan withdrawal debacle? This country is being destroyed right now, and now he’s trying to look tough on the border? That’s insignificant. (No answer on child care costs, but come on, who would waste time on a nothing question like that?)
Biden: We’re the most admired country in the world. Everything about it is great. Nobody thinks we’re weak, everyone knows we’re great. And those 159 scholars voted Trump as the worst president in history.
(Moderator: Trump, will you answer about child care costs?)
Trump: No. Biden is the worst president ever. (Lots of reasons. Reason, reasons, reasons.)
Biden: Trump will increase child care costs. He’ll raise costs on everything for everybody. He’ll bankrupt the country. He made no progress with China. (Still talking about something when time runs out.)
Opioid crisis. Trump, what will you do for people facing those problems?
Trump: He just said I produced the biggest deficits. HE made the biggest deficits. Notice he kept the tariffs I put in? But he still manages the largest deficits, and has built the worst situation with China. (Moderator: Sixty-seven seconds left. What about the original question?) We were doing fine, but the big problem was the drugs pouring over the border, which got worse and worse and worse under Biden. Not to mention human trafficking, because his border policies are so bad.
Biden: No, fentanyl went down! And I wanted to do more of that. Only Trump got his Republican colleagues to stop what I wanted to do. We need those machines! (Not really clear about what machines. Fentanyl detectors?)
(Moderator prompts Trump again about the opioid question.)
Trump: (Something about a reporter being held hostage [by Putin]?) I did a great job of getting back hostages.
Biden, you’ll be 86 at the end of a second term. What do you say about people who find that concerning?
Biden: Trump left me lots of problems. All my problems are because of Trump. I did lots of stuff getting fabs into America. (Fabs being something about jobs from Samsung.) America is great. Everybody trusts us and looks up to us. Trump sends love letters to dictators.
(Moderator: Trump, you’d be 82 at the end of a second term. What do you say?)
Trump: I took cognitive tests, which Biden won’t do. I always ace them. I’m in good shape. I just won two club championships (golf), and it wasn’t even in the seniors division. I feel like I’m in as good a shape as years ago … but mainly, I was willing to do the cognitive tests, and passed them.
Biden: (Starts by messing up his recitation of Trump’s height/weight.) I’ll be happy to play golf with you if you’ll carry your own bag. What do you say about that?
(Back-and-forth, not all audible, couldn’t really follow it.)
Trump, will you promise to recognize the results of the next election?
Trump: Always have, always will. If the election is free and fair … Hey, I wish this guy was a great president, because then he wouldn’t have his people coming after me. And we’re in trouble because of him, and I have to do something about that. We’re close to World War III, and he’s the one driving us there.
(Susan just had me actually look at the screen, because I had only been listening while I keyboarded. Biden looks half-stoned, half-demonic, and Susan points out he hardly ever blinks. What kind of drug cocktail would do that? Meanwhile, Biden says we’ll get World War III if we choose Trump.)
Trump: Things are going so bad with Ukraine and Russia, and all because of Biden.
(Moderator: Back to the question, will you recognize the results of the election?)
Trump: Like I said, if it’s free and fair. The fraud was ridiculous. I didn’t even want to run this time, but I can’t just stand by when I see what’s happening and what’s being done.
Biden: You’re a whiner. You appealed to courts everywhere. Not one court anywhere said your claims had any merit, yet you keep pushing your lies. I doubt you’ll accept election results, because you’re such a whiner.
Another commercial break. Still on the second drink.
Okay, back. And now closing statements.
Biden: All my problems are because of the mess Trump left. Biggest problem, taxes. Is the tax system fair? Nobody making over $400,000 pays any taxes. Trump caused all my problems, and now he wants to tax you more by putting 10% tariffs on everything. I did great with keeping drug prices down, and he’ll ruin that. I saved government money that way, and he wants to get rid of that. I want to get rid of lead pipes and other stuff.
Trump: He’s just a complainer. “We want to do all kinds of stuff,” but he doesn’t actually do anything. He made a mess of Afghanistan, he caused the trouble for Israel by giving so much money to Iran, he caused the Ukraine problem … He talks about Charlottesville, the whole country is 100 times Charlottesville because of his policies and actions. If he’s got jobs, it’s because I cut regulations. (Other stuff I couldn’t keep up with.) We put in policies where military veterans could get care outside the immediate VA system. (Then a quick close, because time was up.)
***
Immediate cut to post-debate analysis by ABC News.
They acknowledge that Biden didn’t deliver the performance he needed to, then said it again a few times. Said repeatedly that Trump lied a lot (I heard some bombast, but no lies except from Biden), but mainly they were focused on how this wasn’t good for Biden.
Then they went straight to questions of whether Biden should be replaced as the Democrat nominee. Brought in Donna Brazile to comment on that. She, too, said Biden didn’t really do what he needed to do. Admitted many Democrats are disappointed (how does she know that definitively within minutes?), points out there are still 131 days in the campaign. She hedged her message by saying Biden spent too much of his time fact-checking Trump and calling out his lies — they both called each other liars several times, it wasn’t a handicap limited to Biden — but even though she repeated her support for Biden, she wasn’t remotely trying to claim a win for him.
Then Reince Prebus for the Republican side. He brought up something I’ve been seeing hints of in opinion articles for at least two weeks: speculation that the Democrats put together such an early debate to give them time to replace Biden on the ballot. Frankly, the tone of what I’m seeing from ABC News makes me think they’ve already been tipped off to the program and are doing their bit to lay the foundation.
My own take on what I saw:
First, despite my initial misgivings, the moderators seemed to behave themselves. Maybe they’re beginning to pay attention to the widespread accusations of media bias, and wanted to avoid giving that appearance. Whatever the cause, I saw no reason to object.
This was a relatively short debate, ninety minutes. I think both these guys came out to punch at each other as hard as they could for as long as the clock was running. They both did plenty of that; neither did a great job of looking good at it, but the venue and structure pretty much dictated that. There were a lot of non sequiturs, and lot of stream-of-consciousness statements/
I don’t think anybody already supporting Trump was going to change over to Biden. I doubt anyone already supporting Biden (or, more probably, hating Trump and looking for anything as an alternative, which is a thing in itself because my own 2016 vote wasn’t for-Trump but anti-Hillary) was going to change over to Trump. Some undecideds hoping to make up their minds about Trump might have been disappointed; some undecideds hoping to make up their minds about Biden would likely have nothing to make them regard him as the better choice, though possibly the less-bad choice.
Trump might get a small bump from this, from his own performance. Maybe a larger one because of how bad Biden’s performance was.
I couldn’t really say Biden lost big. But he for damn sure didn’t win.
***
Postscript, the morning after the debate:
Well.
Apparently, despite my deep-set dislike of Joe Biden, my reaction to the debate was MORE favorable to him than the national consensus (or even the one among Democrat loyalists). The most generous assessment of Biden was that he ‘didn’t do a good enough job of reacting to all of Trump’s lies’. After that, the judgments went sharply downhill.
The likeliest reason for this disconnect is one that I already referred to: because I was summarizing/
Or maybe it’s just a matter of where you started. I wanted more from Trump, so I was somewhat disappointed; I had an extremely low starting opinion of Biden, so I was only confirmed in what I already believed.
(Also, once transcripts became available, it was clear I’d misheard, misunderstood, or just plain missed several key points … with the natural result that I wound up mis-stating them. One of the hazards of speed-typing while drinking.)
Barely more than four months till the election. This could get brutal … and not in the way Trump’s opponents wanted.
